Friday, June 08, 2007

Irony is delicious


A photo by Oleg Kabatov, published in the Russian edition of Esquire, of an OMON (SWAT equivalent) officer in full riot gear - including an SS logo painted on the helmet in white-out.

Preserved for posterity and easy reference whenever someone starts bitching about the swastika earring thing in Estonia way back.

It is incredible, really, how Russian propaganda is consistently undermined by Russians themselves.

Here's another one by Oleg Klimov.

18 comments:

Jim Fadden said...

Well, the difference is that Estonian government doesn't condemn the acts of neo-nazis, (Calendars, meetings etc.) and in Russia they are prosecuted for that. Besides first thing that I thought even before reading that this is OMON (which isn't actually seen from the picture) that someone had put that on his helmet without his knowledge.

Flasher T said...

Estonia does condemn the acts of Nazis, both classical and Neo, in law and in practice. The first ever conviction for an Internet comment was that of a neonazi. Foreign neonazis have been expelled from the country. Nazi propaganda is illegal. The calendars are careful to limit themselves to specific depictions of the 20th Division, which is both historically local, and has been found to be innocent of crimes against humanity at the Nuremberg trials.

I've provided links to the image source, plus another image of the same event and the same helmet, from a different photographer, proving that it is indeed OMON.

Do you actually believe that someone could paint something on the equipment of an officer of a tactical response unit without that officer knowing about it?

Jim Fadden said...

I don't know if it's true but it appears that it was a fake, mate: http://lenta.ru/news/2007/05/11/publication/.

All in all, to which Russian propaganda are you referring to? To my knowledge there is a very few publications about Estonia in Russia, while we [Estonian media] are attacking them several times a day, if you open postimees.ee you will see at least 3-4 articles accusing Kremlin or Russia or Putin or Medvedev of something. If you are referring to the criticism coming from Russia on glorifying Nazism than it's called a reaction [to our action that is] which can't be propaganda because it's not initiated by them.

Flasher T said...

Your link goes to a story about an MP saying "it can't possibly be true" and asking the parliament's "information politics" committee to investigate. You'll need to show me an expert's findings at least, before you can claim it's fake. Especially since this is the Internet, where busting news media's photochops is a long-standing event of the Special Olympics.

What do you mean "attacking them"? PM has articles about Russia because it's nearby and interesting things happen there. You might as well claim englishrussia.com is CIA propaganda.

And I assure you, at the time the image was posted - June 2007 - there was no shortage of propaganda in the Russian media, including stuff about Estonia. It's gone down since because the election was in 2008 and there isn't enough of a neew for it.

Finally, who is "we [Estonian media]"? I googled your name, Jim, and I can't find any connection between you and the Estonian media.

Jim Fadden said...

>>before you can claim it's fake.

Are you familiar with the term Presumption of Innocence? It's basically if you accusing someone of something you have to prove that he/she is guilty. eg. you have to prove that this guy actually put this on his helmet because he is an SS supporter before you can claim that Russian propaganda doesn't see what happens in Russia. Tho I agree that it's not confirmed that it was a fake.

PM is attacking Russia without a fraction of a doubt, by far most of it's articles are about how bad Russia is and how we should defend our selves from "inevitable" threat. If you want I can give you a list of headlines next time. Can you give me a link to an article in which PM says something good about Russia?

I'm a Russian who lives in Estonia so by "we [Estonian media]" I meant Estonian society through Estonian media are attacking Russia. Don't get me wrong I'm not someone who is brainwashed by Russian msm (main stream media) I do know what is going on in Russia (corruption etc.) but it's far from what Estonian msm tries to tell us. I'm not using my real name because I'm not supporting the myth of soviet occupation and I can be prosecuted for that in Estonia. Way to go, young democracy! ;)

Flasher T said...

Are you familiar with the term Occam's Razor? If I see something drawn on the helmet of a SWAT officer on duty, I'm going to assume the SWAT officer knows it's there. The converse, that someone drew it there and a highly trained tactical specialist did not pay attention to the state of his equipment before deployment, is not only vastly less probable, but also far more insulting to the Russian law enforcement community than the idea of a neonazi among them.

In any case, photographic evidence is acceptable proof by any standard.

Yes, please give me a set of headlines where PM is attacking Russia. While you're at it, please show me someone who's been prosecuted in Estonia for not supporting the myth of Soviet occupation. Linter, Reva and Klenski, who were charged with inciting a riot and cleared by the courts, at least have enough balls to be on record, under their real names.

Jim Fadden said...

Since we are making assumptions I'm going to assume that this picture is not fake, and from this picture we can tell that there are two lightning symbols, that look like SS symbols clearly written by hand on SWAT guy's helmet. That is it. We don't see him drawing it, we don't see him putting his helmet on with these symbols. Which allows us to assume that a)someone put it there without his knowledge b)someone drew it after he put his helmet on (which is most probably the case in my opinion, if this fellow was standing with his back to the crowd holding the line, that cold be easily done) Anyhow, swastika earring is far more complicated (should I say impossible) to put in someone's ear without his/her knowledge, isn't it?

>>far more insulting to the Russian law enforcement community than the idea of a neonazi among them

Well not really, neo-Nazi is the worst that can happen.

>>>And I assure you, at the time the image was posted - June 2007 - there was no shortage of propaganda in the Russian media

Do you mean propaganda about swastika earring or general propaganda about Estonia? Was it on any of Main Stream Channels? 1, RTR? I mean the stuff about the lady with swastika earring.

Here is a list of headlines:
-Venemaa katsetas ballistilist raketti Vojevoda
-Venemaa kasvatab lätlaste piirijärjekordi
-Kadõrov: Venemaa peab asuma rünnakule (Video)
-Moskva tõstis McDonald'si rendihinda tuhat korda
-Enim vähenes kaupade eksport Venemaale
-Gruusia heaks luuranud Vene sõdur mõisteti vangi
-Päeva karikatuur: külalised piiril kinni

What, no good news from Russia? Ever?

I don't think that anyone was ever prosecuted for this but it doesn't mean that it cannot happen and I don't want to be the first one, but it's a nice try, mate. I'm sorry for not being angry enough to fall for your trick, I'm not going to go on record, with my real name, I don't have the balls, I admit it. All I have is the truth. And the truth is that we [Estonian public] are being tricked by our government, which has done everything to set us apart with Russia, in order to squeeze "defense" money from EU, the truth is that just like Saakashvili our president is a CIA thug, the truth is that Putin has no problem with Estonia once or ever, and want's to have normal relations with the west, but we don't see it because we read Postimees.

Flasher T said...

I'm going to assume that this picture is not fake

It was published in a major magazine, the author is known and claims rights to it, and there is another shot of the helmet from a different angle from a different photographer. You can assume it's not fake.

someone drew it after he put his helmet on (which is most probably the case in my opinion, if this fellow was standing with his back to the crowd holding the line, that cold be easily done)

Wow, you really have a low opinion of Russian SWAT.

Anyhow, swastika earring is far more complicated (should I say impossible) to put in someone's ear without his/her knowledge, isn't it?

What's your point? Every bit of shit that was dumped on Estonia's military command for that earring was justified and appropriate.

Well not really, neo-Nazi is the worst that can happen.

You're wrong. Assuming there will always be some number of Nazis in any population, I would far rather have them in the military and SWAT, where they are under strict control. (That is why I do not object to Estonia's military deployment in Iraq: since only professional soldiers are sent on foreign missions, we can take our psycopaths and let them shoot at other psycopaths, instead of Prisma shoppers.)

Do you mean propaganda about swastika earring or general propaganda about Estonia? Was it on any of Main Stream Channels? 1, RTR? I mean the stuff about the lady with swastika earring.

General propaganda, and yes, it was on all the mainstream channels. I don't care about the lady with the swastika earring - she and the chain of command above her deserved all the shit they got.

Here is a list of headlines:

How long did it take you to gather those? At the time I'm writing this, the PM front page contains articles about (in order): Angola, North Korea, Bolivia, Finland, Sweden, Mali... (I got as far as the sports section and stopped.) None about Russia. The amount of PM reporting about Russia is quite natural for a neighboring country. And when there's good news, PM does report it.

I don't think that anyone was ever prosecuted for this but it doesn't mean that it cannot happen and I don't want to be the first one...I'm not going to go on record, with my real name, I don't have the balls, I admit it. All I have is the truth

LOL.

Jim Fadden said...

>>Wow, you really have a low opinion of Russian SWAT.

Russian law enforcements in general are a bunch of corrupt bastards. Tho there are some decent people among them.

>> I would far rather have them in the military and SWAT, where they are under strict control.

OK, I guess. But I would rather have them under arrest if you ask me. Are you seriously suggesting that it is better to have Nazis in law enforcement?

I haven't seen anything on Russian MSM about swastika earring.

I have to say that amount of BS about Russia in postimees has dropped last couple of weeks, may be it has something to do with long holiday in Russia.

>>LOL
Ok so what is your truth? What is your point? What is your take on our president? Our relations with Russia? Don't you think that we are constantly poking it with the stick? (Saakashvili coming to Tallinn this month, Russian minorities discrimination, excavation of soldiers without honors...)

Flasher T said...

Russian law enforcements in general are a bunch of corrupt bastards. Tho there are some decent people among them.

That's irrelevant. However corrupt they are, they're trained well enough not to let someone draw something on the back of their helmet while they're scanning their surroundings for threats.

But I would rather have them under arrest if you ask me.

Ah, now I see why you're so convinced that you will be arrested for your beliefs: because you would like others to be arrested for theirs. Me, I prefer that people are arrested for actions.

Are you seriously suggesting that it is better to have Nazis in law enforcement?

I am seriously suggesting that it is better to have Nazis in a situation where they are subject to a long chain of command, trained to obey orders, and surrender their weapons to the quartermaster at the end of the day. Yes, that is better than having them stockpiling diesel and fertilizer in an old farmhouse somewhere.

I haven't seen anything on Russian MSM about swastika earring.

Right.

Ok so what is your truth?

There's no "my" truth, there's only "the" truth - I don't claim to know all of it, but at least I show my work.

What is your take on our president? Our relations with Russia? Don't you think that we are constantly poking it with the stick? (Saakashvili coming to Tallinn this month, Russian minorities discrimination, excavation of soldiers without honors...)

Our president is better than the previous one, and hasn't done anything to piss me off too much. Our relations with Russia are entirely natural for a border country that chose a different empire to align itself with. Saakashvili's visit to Tallinn is no business of Russia's. Discrimination is the ghost that losers cling to. The soldiers were buried with full military honors at a military cemetary, in the presence of high-ranking government officials and foreign dignitaries.

Jim Fadden said...

>>Ah, now I see why you're so convinced that you will be arrested for your beliefs:

Wanna show me the bit where I say "beliefs"? We were talking about Nazis in general. FYI Nazi movement is criminal in most of the world.

>>I am seriously suggesting that it is better to have Nazis in a situation where they are subject to a long chain of command

Well this is just silly. I'm sorry, but I can't believe that I am talking seriously to someone who thinks that way. What if a Nazi or any kind of extremist gets higher in the chain of command and then higher and higher? We will have another Hitler, wouldn't we? And you do condemn Hitler and his III Reich right?

>> Right.

None of this is MSM (1, RTR, NTV), mate. But thanks for pointing me to the good internet page - Google, I really liked it.

>>chose a different empire to align itself with

What are you on about?

>>Saakashvili's visit to Tallinn is no business of Russia's.

Bingo! You know, that is the most popular answer to the question why are we provoking Russia: "it's none of their business!" ... that we invite a dictator that slaughtered Russian peace keepers, ... that we want to glorify Nazism and give medals to people who fought for Nazi occupation of Estonia and SU, ... that we dig graves of Russian soldiers (WITHOUT honors, I saw it with my own eyes: it was covered with a tent and said "Architectural excavations" so no honors during the excavation, mate and I doubt that any honors where given when they were reburied, you have any pictures may be?). So why are we allowed to do anything and bitch about everything that happens in Russia.

>>Discrimination is the ghost that losers cling to.

Well that just sums it up. If you are not happy with the way that you are treated by the government and you want to say something about it then you are a loser? Do you support democracy? Do you know what it means? Is this how democracy works in your opinion? The discrimination of Russian minority by the citizenship law is in effect as we speak.

Flasher T said...

Wanna show me the bit where I say "beliefs"?

This entire thread you've been talking about your beliefs - the belief that there are 3-4 articles every day on the PM front page accusing Russia of something, the belief that you will be prosecuted if you reveal your real name, etc.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that I am talking seriously to someone who thinks that way.

...and yet you keep talking.

None of this is MSM (1, RTR, NTV), mate.

InoSMI is not MSM? Regnum is not MSM?

But thanks for pointing me to the good internet page - Google, I really liked it.

You're welcome. You obviously didn't know about it before. Go and use it to find pictures of the reburial ceremony.

Do you support democracy? Do you know what it means?

A lot better than you do, apparently.

Jim Fadden said...

>>A lot better than you do, apparently.

Than perhaps you can explain me this: isn't fighting for my rights what democracy is all about?

>>InoSMI is not MSM? Regnum is not MSM?

Well No. But anyway you wrote "there was no shortage of propaganda in the Russian media" which implies that there was alot of propaganda while InoSMI link shows Estonian [as in not Russian] Delfi article and REGNUM article is only partly about this issue. Is that alot of propaganda. You know I'm sick of journalists like you even "occasional" ones, you people don't seem to know what you are on about.

Flasher T said...

isn't fighting for my rights what democracy is all about?

No, it isn't. Go and read the archive, there are several pieces about what democracy actually is. Use Google.

You know I'm sick of journalists like you even "occasional" ones, you people don't seem to know what you are on about.

And yet you keep coming back.

Jim Fadden said...

>>No, it isn't.

I will repeat the question: isn't fighting for my rights what democracy is all about?

wikipedia: Even though there is no specific, universally accepted definition of 'democracy',there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes, equality and freedom. These principles are reflected by all citizens being equal before the law, and having equal access to power, and freedom is secured by legitimized rights and liberties, which are generally protected by a constitution.

>>And yet you keep coming back.
I am and I will. Are you tired of me? Do you wish that you have never posted this entry in your blog? Are you surprised that someone who doesn't support Estonian government and foreign policy is good enough at writing in English to destroy your one-sided entry in the blog?

Flasher T said...

These principles are reflected by all citizens being equal before the law, and having equal access to power, and freedom is secured by legitimized rights and liberties, which are generally protected by a constitution.

All citizens, mind. Not just you. As I've said multiple times before: democracy ascribes the most freedom practicable to its citizens, but not absolute freedom to all. When the interests of a minority are in contradiction with the interests of the majority, the minority takes a hike.

Flasher T said...

Are you tired of me?

Not at all, which is why I keep approving your comments.

Jim Fadden said...

The following two sentences are definetly in conflict:

"all citizens being equal before the law, and having equal access to power, and freedom"

>>When the interests of a minority are in contradiction with the interests of the majority, the minority takes a hike.

It seems that it all came down to just one word: 'all', do you understand that 'all' includes minority as well as majority? I have to say that I understand your point tho, but what you are referring to is called the reality not democracy, democracy ascribes all of freedoms for all of people, and in reality Russian minority takes a hike.

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